SN4-V2-Ch10-Samyutta44

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Note : 'c' of Pali words is pronounced as 'ch' as in 'China'

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=Samyutta Nikaya:4.Salayatanavagga-Six Sense Bases=

410. Khema
On one occasion the Lord (Buddha) was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park. Now on that occasion the bhikkhuni Khema, 373 while wandering on tour among the Kosalans, had taken up residence in Toranavatthu between Savatthi and Saketa. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, while travelling from Saketa to Savatthi, took up residence for one night in Toranavatthu between Saketa and Savatthi. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala addressed a man thus: "Go, good man, and find out whether there is any ascetic or brahmin in Toranavatthu whom I could visit today."

"Yes, sire," the man replied, but though he traversed the whole of Toranavatthu he did not see any ascetic or brahmin there whom King Pasenadi could visit. The man did see, however, the bhikkhuni Khema resident in Toranavatthu, so he approached King Pasenadi and said to him:

"Sire, there is no ascetic or brahmin in Toranavatthu whom your majesty could visit. But, sire, there is the bhikkhuni named Khema, a disciple of the Lord (Buddha), the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. Now a good report concerning this revered lady has spread about thus: 'She is wise, competent, intelligent, learned, a splendid speaker, ingenious.' Let your majesty visit her."

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the bhikkhuni Khema, paid homage to her, sat down to one side, and said to her:

"How is it, revered lady, does the Tathagata exist after death?" 374

"Great king, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The Tathagata exists after death"

"Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Great king, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"How is it then, revered lady, does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"Great king, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"Great king, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"How is this, revered lady? When asked, 'How is it, revered lady, does the Tathagata exist after death?' ... And when asked, 'Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?' — in each case you say: 'Great king, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this.' What now, revered lady, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Well then, great king, I will question you about this same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, great king? Do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the grains of sand in the river Ganges thus: 'There are so many grains of sand,' or 'There are so many hundreds of grains of sand,' or 'There are so many thousands of grains of sand,' or 'There are so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sand'?"

"No, revered lady."

"Then, great king, do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the water in the great ocean thus:

'There are so many gallons of water,' or 'There are so many hundreds of gallons of water,' or 'There are so many thousands of gallons of water,' or 'There are so many hundreds of thousands of gallons of water'?"

"No, revered lady. For what reason? Because the great ocean is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom."

"So too, 375 great king, that form by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him has been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of form; he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. 376 The Tathagata exists after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' does not apply.

"That sensation(vedana) by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him... That perception by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him ... Those volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him ... That consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him has been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness; he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. 'The Tathagata exists after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' does not apply."

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, having delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhuni Khema's statement, rose from his seat, paid homage to her, and departed, keeping her on his right.

Then, on a later occasion. King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the Lord (Buddha). "Having approached, he paid homage to the Lord (Buddha), sat down to one side, and said to him:

"How is it, venerable sir, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"Great king, I have not declared this: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

( All as above down to:)

"Great king, I have not declared this either: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"How is this, venerable sir? When asked, 'How is it, venerable sir, does the Tathagata exist after death?' ... And when asked, 'Then, venerable sir, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?' — in each case you say: 'Great king, I have not declared this.' What now, venerable sir, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Well then, great king, I will question you about this same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, great king? Do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician ... (all as above down to :) ... The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness: he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. The Tathagata exists after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' does not apply; 'the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' does not apply."

"It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. 377 On one occasion, venerable sir, I approached the bhikkhuni Khema and asked her about this matter. The revered lady explained this matter to me in exactly the same terms and phrases that the Lord (Buddha) used. It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. Now, venerable sir, we must go. We are busy and have much to do."

"Then, great king, you may go at your own convenience."

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, having delighted and rejoiced in the Lord (Buddha)'s statement, [380] rose from his seat, paid homage to him, and departed, keeping him on his right.

411. Anuradha
(Identical with previous 410 )

412. Sariputta and Kotthita (1)
On one occasion the Venerable Sariputta and the Venerable Mahakotthita were dwelling at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then, in the evening, the Venerable Mahakotthita emerged from seclusion and approached the Venerable Sariputta. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Sariputta and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:

"How is it, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"Friend, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

(As in the preceding sutta down to:)

"Friend, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"How is this, friend? When asked, 'How is it, friend, does the Tathagata exist after death?' ... And when asked, 'Then, friend, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?' — in each case you say: 'Friend, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this.' What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"'The Tathagata exists after death': this, friend, is an involvement with form. 378 'The Tathagata does not exist after death': this is an involvement with form. The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death': this is an involvement with form. The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death': this is an involvement with form.

"'The Tathagata exists after death': this, friend, is an involvement with sensation(vedana) ... an involvement with perception ... an involvement with volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) .. an involvement with consciousness. 'The Tathagata does not exist after death': this is an involvement with consciousness. 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death': this is an involvement with consciousness. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death': this is an involvement with consciousness.

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

413. Sariputta and Kotthita (2)
(As above down to:)

"What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Friend, it is one who does not know and see form as it really is, who does not know and see its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death,' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' It is one who does not know and see sensation(vedana) as it really is . . . who does not know and see perception as it really is .. . who does not know and see volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) as they really are ... who does not know and see consciousness as it really is, who does not know and see its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' .... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But, friend, one who knows and sees form . . . sensation(vedana) . . . perception ... volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) ... consciousness as it really is, who knows and sees its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

414. Sariputta and Kotthita (3)
(As above down to:)

"What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Friend, it is one who is not devoid of lust for form, who is not devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for form, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death,' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' It is one who is not devoid of lust for sensation(vedana) ... who is not devoid of lust for perception ... who is not devoid of lust for volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) ... who is not devoid of lust for consciousness, who is not devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for consciousness, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ...or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But, friend, one who is devoid of lust for form ... who is devoid of lust for sensation(vedana) ... who is devoid of lust for perception ... who is devoid of lust for volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) ... who is devoid of lust for consciousness, who is devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for consciousness, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

415. Sariputta and Kotthita (4)
On one occasion the Venerable Sariputta and the Venerable Mahakotthita were dwelling at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then, in the evening, the Venerable Sariputta emerged from seclusion and approached the Venerable Mahakotthita. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Mahakotthita and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:

"How is it, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

(All as above down to:)

"What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

i. Delight in the aggregates

"Friend, it is one who delights in form, who takes delight in form, who rejoices in form, and who does not know and see the cessation of form as it really is, that thinks: The Tathagata exists after death' ... or The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' It is one who delights in sensation(vedana) ... who delights in perception ... who delights in volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) ... who delights in consciousness, who takes delight in consciousness, who rejoices in consciousness, and who does not know and see the cessation of consciousness as it really is, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But, friend, one who does not delight in form ... who does not delight in sensation(vedana) ... who does not delight in perception ... who does not delight in volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) . . . who does not delight in consciousness, who does not take delight in consciousness, who does not rejoice in consciousness, and who knows and sees the cessation of consciousness as it really is, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

ii. Delight in existence

"But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"There could be, friend. It is one who delights in existence, who takes delight in existence, who rejoices in existence, and who does not know and see the cessation of existence as it really is, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But, friend, one who does not delight in existence, who does not take delight in existence, who does not rejoice in existence, and who knows and sees the cessation of existence as it really is, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

iii. Delight in clinging

"But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"There could be, friend. It is one who delights in clinging, who takes delight in clinging, who rejoices in clinging, and who does not know and see the cessation of clinging as it really is, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But, friend, one who does not delight in clinging, who does not take delight in clinging, who does not rejoice in clinging, and who knows and sees the cessation of clinging as it really is, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

iv. Delight in craving

"But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"There could be, friend. It is one who delights in craving, who takes delight in craving, who rejoices in craving, and who does not know and see the cessation of craving as it really is, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ...or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

“But, friend, one who does not delight in craving, who does not take delight in craving, who does not rejoice in craving, and who knows and sees the cessation of craving as it really is, does not think: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)."

v. Another method?

"But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Here now, friend Sariputta, why should you want anything additional to this? Friend Sariputta, when a bhikkhu is liberated by the destruction of craving, there is no round for describing him." 379

416. Moggallana
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Venerable Mahamoggallana and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Venerable Mahamoggallana:

"How is it. Master Moggallana, is the world eternal?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The world is eternal.'"

"Then, Master Moggallana, is the world not eternal?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The world is not eternal.'"

"How is it then. Master Moggallana, is the world finite?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The world is finite.'"

"Then, Master Moggallana, is the world infinite?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The world is infinite.'"

"How is it then. Master Moggallana, are the soul and the body the same?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The soul and the body are the same."'

"Then, Master Moggallana, is the soul one thing, the body another?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The soul is one thing, the body is another."'

"How is it. Master Moggallana, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Then, Master Moggallana, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"How is it, then. Master Moggallana, does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Then, Master Moggallana, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"What, Master Moggallana, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' or 'The world is not eternal'; or 'The world is finite' or 'The world is infinite'; or 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body is another'; or 'The Tathagata exists after death,' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death,' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death'? And what is the cause and reason why, when the ascetic Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?"

"Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' They regard the ear . . . the nose . . . the tongue ... the body ... the mind thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' He regards the ear ... the mind thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers."

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and approached the Lord (Buddha). He exchanged greetings with the Lord (Buddha) ... and said to him:

"How is it, good Gotama, is the world eternal?"

(All as above down to:)

"Vaccha, I have not declared this either: The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"What, Master Gotama, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death'? And what is the cause and reason why, when the ascetic Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?"

"Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye ... the mind thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye ... the mind thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers."

"It is wonderful. Master Gotama! It is amazing. Master Gotama! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. Just now. Master Gotama, I approached the ascetic Moggallana and asked him about this matter. The ascetic Moggallana explained this matter to me in exactly the same terms and phrases that Master Gotama used. It is wonderful. Master Gotama! It is amazing. Master Gotama! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter."

417. Vacchagotta
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Lord (Buddha) and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:

"How is it. Master Gotama, is the world eternal?"... (as above)

"What, Master Gotama, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' And what is the cause and reason why, when Master Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?"

" Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. They regard sensation(vedana) as self . . . perception as self . . . volitional formations(sankhara sans. sanskar) as self . . . consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, does not regard form as self ... or self as in consciousness. Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers."

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and approached the Venerable Mahamoggallana. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Mahamoggallana ... and said to him:

"How is it. Master Moggallana, is the world eternal?"

(All as above down to:)

"Vaccha, the Lord (Buddha) has not declared this either: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"What, Master Moggallana, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death'? And what is the cause and reason why when the ascetic Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?"

"Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard form as self ... or self as in consciousness. Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, does not regard form as self ... or self as in consciousness. Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers."

"It is wonderful. Master Moggallana! It is amazing. Master Moggallana! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. Just now. Master Moggallana, I approached the ascetic Gotama and asked him about this matter. The ascetic Gotama explained this matter to me in exactly the same terms and phrases that Master Moggallana used. It is wonderful. Master Moggallana! It is amazing, Master Moggallana! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter."

418. The Debating Hall (Kuthuhalsala)
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Lord (Buddha) and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Lord (Buddha):

"In recent days. Master Gotama, a number of ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers of various sects had assembled in the debating hall and were sitting together when this conversation arose among them: 380 This Purana Kassapa — the leader of an order, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, the well known and famous spiritual guide considered holy by many people — declares the rebirth of a disciple who has passed away and died thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." And in the case of a disciple who was a person of the highest kind, a supreme person, one who had attained the supreme attainment, when that disciple has passed away and died he also declares his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." This Makkhali Gosala ... This Nigantha Nataputta ... This Sanjaya Belatthiputta ... This Pakudha Kaccayana ... This Ajita Kesakambali ... when that disciple has passed away and died he also declares his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." This ascetic Gotama — the leader of an order, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, the well known and famous spiritual guide considered holy by many people — declares the rebirth of a disciple who has passed away and died thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." But in the case of a disciple who was a person of the highest kind, a supreme person, one who had attained the supreme attainment, when that disciple has passed away and died he does not declare his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." Rather, he declares of him: "He cut off craving, severed the fetter, and, by completely breaking through conceit, he has made an end to suffering.'"

"There was perplexity in me. Master Gotama, there was doubt:

'How is the Dhamma of the ascetic Gotama to be understood?"'

"It is fitting for you to be perplexed, Vaccha, it is fitting for you to doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. I declare, Vaccha, rebirth for one with fuel, not for one without fuel. Just as a fire burns with fuel, but not without fuel, so, Vaccha, I declare rebirth for one with fuel, not for one without fuel. "381

"Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?"

"When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the wind is its fuel."

"And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?"

"When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. 382 For on that occasion craving is its fuel."

419. Ananda (Is There a Self?)
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Lord (Buddha) ... and said to him:

"How is it now. Master Gotama, is there a self?"

When this was said, the Lord (Buddha) was silent.

"Then, Master Gotama, is there no self?"

A second time the Lord (Buddha) was silent.

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and departed. Then, not long after the wanderer Vacchagotta had left, the Venerable Ananda said to the Lord (Buddha): "Why is it, venerable sir, that when the Lord (Buddha) was questioned by the wanderer Vacchagotta, he did not answer?"

"If, Ananda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, 'Is there a self?' I had answered, 'There is a self,' this would have been siding with 383 those ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists. And if, when I was asked by him, 'Is there no self?' I had answered, 'There is no self,' this would have been siding with those ascetics and brahmins who are annihilationists.

"If, Ananda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, 'Is there a self?' I had answered, 'There is a self,' would this have been consistent on my part with the arising of the knowledge that 'all phenomena are nonself'?" 384

"No, venerable sir."

"And if, when I was asked by him, 'Is there no self?' I had answered, 'There is no self,' the wanderer Vacchagotta, already confused, would have fallen into even greater confusion, thinking, 'It seems that the self I formerly had does not exist now.'" 388

420. Sabhiya Kaccana
On one occasion the Venerable Sabhiya Kaccana was dwelling at Natika in the Brick Hall. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Venerable Sabhiya Kaccana and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:

"How is it. Master Kaccana, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

(All as in §1 down to:)

"What then. Master Kaccana, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Lord (Buddha)?"

"Vaccha, as to the cause and condition for describing him as 'consisting of form' or as 'formless' or as 'percipient' or as 'nonpercipient' or as 'neither percipient nor nonpercipient': if that cause and condition were to cease completely and totally without remainder, in what way could one describe him as 'consisting of form' or as 'formless' or as 'percipient' or as 'nonpercipient' or as 'neither percipient nor nonpercipient'?"

"How long has it been since you went forth, Master Kaccana?"

"Not long, friend. Three years."

"One, friend, who has gotten so much in such a time has indeed gotten much, 386 not to speak of one who has surpassed this!".

The Book of The Six Sense Bases (Salayatanavagga) of Samyutta Nikaya is finished.